Dr. Eric Davis, Chief Science Officer of EarthTech Int’l, Inc. and the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, was a recent guest on Open Minds UFO Radio. He has worked with Robert Bigelow for decades researching the paranormal, including UFOs. He also worked on the projects related to the Pentagon’s UFO program and the To the Stars Academy. In order to break down all of the amazing information he shared during our recent interview, we have created a transcript of it. Visit this page to listen to the interview. A transcription service was used, so there are mistakes that we will try to correct over time. Reference the audio for clarification. Time stamps in the transcript begin at the start of the interview with Davis.
Alejandro Rojas: I am very happy to welcome to the show for the first time, Dr. Eric Davis. Hello, how are you?
Dr. Eric Davis: Fine. I’m doing great. How are you doing?
Alejandro Rojas: I am doing very well. And I guess my first question, because we have a lot to get into is, what do you think of this news coming just recently that the Navy is working up some guidelines on UFO reporting?
Dr. Eric Davis: Well, it’s about time. And the Navy has always led all the service branches in many areas. And this is just another example where they’re ahead of the curve, whereas the Army Air Force just shy away. For example, the Navy is the leader in directed energy weapons development in the Department of Defense. So they have had the most accelerated schedule for developing directed energy and deploying it on car that test vehicles will first doing experimental prototyping and testing and then deploying it on a combat vehicle out in the Persian Gulf. So they’re way ahead of where the army the Marine Corps and the Air Force have done. Those services haven’t even yet fielded any prototypical combat weapons that can be fielded that have been fields that they haven’t done that they’re just doing development and testing, and they’ll be doing prototyping inside the United States. They’re just lagging behind and then with the UFO subject comes along year, well, what do you know; it’s the Navy that’s having all the problems with the encounters of tic tac, like UFO shows or other UFO shows. And, and so they’re the ones that are going to take the lead to no data specific recording, reporting protocol for everybody that has such encounters.
Alejandro Rojas: And they do you think as far as leadership is concerned, are they concerned about a possible unknowns? Or do you think that they mostly feel that these could be foreign adversaries just using technology we don’t recognize?
Dr. Eric Davis 2:04: Well, the first hypothesis is it’s a foreign adversary that we don’t recognize. But then once you do the analysis of the F8 fighter FLIR videos and radar from the surface warships at like, for example, I’m speaking of the USS Nimitz Carrier Strike groups encounter with the Tic Tac back in November 2004. In the first week, I believe for a hope for about a week of the encounters.
And when you look at visual sightings, timings, scope sightings that were done from onboard the ship’s using sophisticated observational scopes that they use out in the ocean.
And then of course, the weapons systems radar and aviation radar, and then the fighters have their own systems and so forth. We look at when you look at when first contact is made, and then how rapidly the object moves and changes altitude and hovers over the ocean and sips off again. And it’s changing altitude by dozens of thousands of 10s of thousands of feet, or dozens of times 10s of thousands of feet.
In a matter of three to five seconds, you’re not basically talking about human technology. There is no Russian or Chinese or North Korean or Iran or anybody else. No, no NATO or any other Alliance, design Alliance country, not unlike countries have any sort of technology that can form the way these tick tax were found to be performing.
And it’s really easy to discern the difference between even an unknown manmade object and, and, and this phenomenon, because unknown manmade objects have to obey the laws of aerodynamics, and the engineering that’s associated with that. And, excuse me, when the Tic Tac don’t have any observable control surfaces, they don’t have any attendance. They don’t have any external engines and an engine mounts and pylons. What am I thinking of? I can’t think of the word that right now. But that’s how the engines are connected up. And so control surfaces are lacking.
External propulsion is lacking. You don’t see windows and so you know what, what is this is it. Anything a drone, even a drone wouldn’t look like this. All drones have an engine propulsion system, which is very easy and obvious to observe.
Their structural fuselages are also very easy to discern and, and determine when they adhere to the human designs for aeronautical platforms that move through air. The things were are not shaped in the usual typical way that we humans would shape them. So you, you don’t got to come up with another hypothesis and the only hypothesis is something unknown. And then it’s got a good chance that it’s not human technology.
Alejandro Rojas: Thank you for that. But we’ll get into your background now. And kind of, you know, related to this, you’ve been doing this, and a lot of your colleagues that you work with; in particular, Hal Puthoff of course, you’ve been working in this arena for decades. But there are these ideas out there right now that this is part of some controlled disclosure that you know, this is all been planned. And if that was so that would mean that you are part of some bigger plan. I mean, is that something that you feel is credible at all? Do you see that? Or is this just kind of the fruits of your efforts, all of your efforts to bring credibility to what would be considered fringe areas of science?
Dr. Eric Davis 6:02: Well, it’s two things. It’s, it’s the cumulative effect of all of our efforts, decades of efforts of hard work. But the release of this information is driven strictly by the phenomenon itself. All this nonsense about plans disclosure, or confirmation, that’s all conspiracy theory nonsense. And it’s one of the first order hypotheses that jump into many people’s minds when they’re uninformed about what’s going on. The United States government is such a big and complex organization, multiple organizations, as you say, interconnecting interlocking and you know, by by deliberative reasons, parts of it are secret, and other parts are no secret. And so parts that are secret, don’t talk to the non secret parts. And even the parts that are secret don’t talk among themselves within themselves because of compartmentalization, or certain or the differences in classification many different secrets out. So there is no coordinated anything, because I have to guarantee you that the United State Government is not that coordinated, especially in the Donald Trump era. Right? Anyway, anyway, this is there’s no such thing as a coordinated or uncoordinated or planned or unplanned disclosure, that’s all been a salesman pitch that was invented by a lot of the more local high profile celebrities, and you fall with you. And that’s how they sell their books. That’s how they sell tickets to their special events. And that’s how UFO conferences, sell tickets to their conferences when these people are invited as guest speakers just flies in the in the realm of rational scientific and bureaucratic thinking.
The UFO phenomenon has countering Naval Weapons platforms repeatedly. And it’s created a dangerous environment for the pilots for the human pilots that are involved. And so now it’s becoming the great safety issue because the numbers or the frequency? Well, I should say the numbers and the frequency of the encounters is pretty big. And it is not my new it’s not rare. It’s not once in a while, it’s more like Yeah and it’s pretty often. And it isn’t located in one geography, it’s spread across the globe. And it’s interacting with US Navy. So that’s been driving their desire to want to do this new reporting protocol and put it out there, which political just reported yesterday. So and then, as far as what Lou Elizondo did after he retired from the God is he was pretty upset that this program, the AWSAP program, it’s not really called the hf a tip that’s the advanced aerospace threat identification program that Harry Reid pulled out from thin air and made it up on his own and a letter that he wrote to Deputy Secretary of Defense William Boykin many years ago. And the actual program is AWSAP and I forget advanced aerospace weapons, something or another application program.
Alejandro Rojas: I think this goes back to a communication issue, because it turned out, I think, what had happened is Harry Reid was aware that Lou and the guy running AAWSAP had been working on AATIP and using that term, but that information probably didn’t get to you all because you were hired by and working with AAWSAP.
Dr. Eric Davis 9:56: No, it’s just that Harry Reid wasn’t fully briefed on everything.
Alejandro Rojas 10:00: That’s how Lou had said that that actually happened.
Dr. Eric Davis 10:05: Okay, well, I’m not going to contradict Lou, then. That’s fine. My view is, yeah, we were working as subcontractors to Bigelow Aerospace, advanced Space Studies who have to contract to the Defense Intelligence Agency. And so yeah, our world view was AAWSAP. And then all of a sudden, we see AATIP up. Okay, so I’m not going to contradict Lou, he knows more about it. At that level. I didn’t sit in his office and hear all this jargon go flashing by. I’m one of the worker bees who are expediting the missions. And anyway, so no, there’s no, there’s no, there’s no conspiracy, that theory, there’s no there’s no wrong, you know, it’s like the long awaited rate of return to Jesus. Well, everybody’s had the long awaited disclosure. And it’s like, no, this, isn’t it?
Well, and we’re, however, however, officially, the United States government, via the God, of course, I reverse, the God has issued an official confirmation. So that’s what they’ve done. They’ve, they’ve officially confirmed it. Now that they help you disclosure, what they’ve disclosed is, hey, they have had encounters with unusual craft that they can identify as human made, or unknown human made craft? In other words, they don’t, the objects don’t follow the aerodynamic rules of engineering. Okay, they just don’t. Okay, and that’s driven by physics. And they are not saying that they’re breaking the laws of physics. So don’t quote me on anything having to do with while they’re, they’re operating on a new physics, we have an event, or no, they’re breaking the laws of physics, it is possible to operating on the physics we have invented or haven’t discovered yet. That’s possible, we don’t know. So anyway, the point is, is that these things are operating there you go way outside the envelope of our engineering and physics technologies. And, and I can guarantee you that no laws of physics are broken whatsoever.
It’s just that it’s either the existing ones that we have that we haven’t extrapolated it further enough, further enough, or expanded it up into realms or, say areas of phase space where we could discover new solutions to these existing physical laws, which would give us advanced propulsion and power that would produce this type of technology, once you have an engineering and manufacturing technology to create these things. So that’s where we’re at. And these things don’t look like anything that we can manufacture on Earth. So we don’t have the manufacturing or industrial technology for it. We don’t have engineering for it. In other words, the blueprints and designs to get something shake like shape like air fighter sighs piece of candy mouth bed and get that to fly through the air stapling. And I do the wonderful things that they do in the years reported by dfj teen pilots at the associated with the Nimitz Carrier Strike. Row. And then of course, and then we have the history of you fall of UFO encounters that we’ve seen all you know, we know that, you know, shock really is recorded all this in his books.
Allen Hynek, Jacques Vallee, and Bob Emin agar and his book associated with his TV, documentary, UFO, it has begun or UFO is past, present and future which, you know, two different versions because one was an updated version of the other. And so all the other well known UFO researchers in academia and industry, and government who had done all the investigations and identified as many witness descriptions of UFO is when you look at these things, which were really well exemplified in the schematic artwork shown in Bob emulators book from 1974. It’s clear that these things have different shapes that are not aerodynamic; they just don’t follow the human engineering, physics, principles for aviation, or aeronautical rural spaceflight.
Alejandro Rojas 14:22: Want to get into a few things. And I think that you’ve shown that well, and I do appreciate you answering the question about the, you know, disclosure, conspiracy, and I am even a little embarrassed to ask because I do not see that President, when looking into and researching any of this, I see a history a rich history of you all working on this for years. But you know, it’s something that comes up and readers wanted to know, but I want to get into your background and that history. So when was it that you began working on I’m not sure what you refer to it, but kind of what is considered kind of fringe science.
Dr. Eric Davis 14:58: I don’t call it fringe. I call it I call it out of the box science. Fringe has a negative connotation. It’s not exactly an accurate word to use. We just call it out of the box, cutting edge, breakthrough science, etc.
I became among the world’s first few full time paid professional scientists who were investigating UFO when I got hired by Bob Bigelow to work at the National Institute for discovery science in July of 1996. And then I went to work for him in Las Vegas. And then I was joined by Colm Kelleher who’s got a PhD in biochemistry, molecular biology and technology. And he’s got quite a background in immunology and diseases, mostly biology and cancers. So and then we were joined by Dr. George Arnett, who is a world famous, world renowned Romanian veterinary pathologist who specialized in avian and bovine diseases. And we joined together with Colonel John Alexander who has PhD in psychology and he studies death. And he was interested in you know survival consciousness after death. And he was working for Bob Bigelow at the time on the net staff. And so we all came together. And of course, John had been working for Bob for some time before we got hired; the three of us got hired in July of 1996.
And all of our work it shows about work was well recorded and documented in Kellher and Knapps’s book Hunt for the Skinwalker, which you’re familiar with. Yeah. So especially our workout on the NIDs UFO Ranch, up in northeast Utah, Utah Valley. And so that documents a good chunk of what we did at NIDs, and it’s not everything, because that book was about the ranch. And we did a lot more than just the ranch, right? We often use the ranch and Las Vegas as our headquarters to go investigate cattle mutilations and UFO and crypto terrestrial sightings. And so just whenever was convenient, the ranch is really nice because it’s closer to the upper western side of the Midwest. And Las Vegas is really, you know, closer to California. So we’re in the Pacific Coast area in Las Vegas. So we can reach quite a bit of places from there. But we’re still kind of far removed from the, from the actual Midwestern the East Coast areas. So it’s just that Bigelow, didn’t want to expand NIDs any further than Las Vegas. And so we just had those two, jumping off basis from which we could do investigations. So we make mainly stayed regional within that area. And we had a one eight hundred number line that was set up and the FAA collaboration was set up so that if anybody called in UFO reports, they could call one 800 number. And we could do a preliminary interview with the call or take information to make a decision on whether it was necessary to send investigators out to investigate their sighting and whatnot. So anyway, we I did that for six years until my job got eliminated during a downsizing of NIDs because of the emergence of Bigelow Aerospace, Bob, Bob Bigelow shifting his attention away from UFOs, because he kind of had about a five year attention span on these types of things. And he figured we have all the problems solved by then. And that’s not possible.
There are a lot of scientific problems, especially in phenomenology, which can take more than a decade of research and study and investigations, collecting data and analyzing it and forums in reforming or changing hypotheses, until you finally converge on the hypothesis or the theory that is that is doing very well to explain all the data you are collecting.
I was just going to wrap it up. So I was there. And then I went to work for the Air Force Research Lab as a contractor to the advanced concepts program office at Edwards Air Force Base, California. And I did that from, actually I started working for them before my job got eliminated, so from January until mid 2005 I was working for them. But I started working for Hal Puthoff as a research physicist in November of 2004. And I’ve been working with Hal since then. And I got promoted up a few years ago up to Chief Science Officer. So like, became Senior Research physicist, among the other staff of the other physicists we had, who had been there about six years earlier than I have six years longer than I have, Hal was also on the staff as the director of the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin. So he was the directors he is also a research physicist in his own right, of course, which you probably know. And so there were three of us physicist on the staff. And then we had a couple of lab engineers who would put our experiments together, and then other support personnel. And so I just rose up through the ranks and became the chief science officer, which is where I’m at now.
Alejandro Rojas 20:33: Now, in that history, when you talked about Skinwalker, for instance, I’ve talked with Colm and Alexander and I guess the first question would be, they both kind of had this view that they were outsmarted by the phenomenon. In fact, you know, Alexander uses his term, a pre-cognitive sentient phenomena. Would you agree with that kind of estimation or thought?
Dr. Eric Davis 21:00: Yeah, that’s pretty much true. That’s pretty much true. Yeah, it was always one step ahead of us.
Alejandro Rojas 21:05: And John talked about one person in particular that the phenomena seem to center around, and from what I gather that might have been you. Is that true?
Dr. Eric Davis 21:16: Yeah, pretty much but Colm Kelleher witnessed events too. So I wasn’t the only one that had all of the experiences, I had many experiences and some of those I had with Colm. And then there were experiences that Colm and I did not have because we got to a point where we needed to rotate staff on off the ranch because Colm and I were fathers to very small children, very young children in school back in those days. And so you know, we needed to stay home a lot more, otherwise our wives would get angry if we were gone too long. So George Arnett was relatively single, and he was still married, his kids were grown and his wife was working as a professional scientist in another state where they originally lived before he came to Las Vegas. So he didn’t have any family duties in Vegas. So we had him and then we had Canadian field investigator Chad Deacon. And, and we didn’t have Shelly Wadsworth involved with us directly. She was indirectly involved because she worked for Bob Bigelow as one of his field investigators. And so she would be more like a conduit of information. And but she would do background stuff for us or bring information our direction and we’d act on it. So we had Shelly Wadsworth, Chad Deacon, but of the people that went to the ranch, it was basically Colm, George, myself Chad, and the former ranch owner. And after he left and moved, moved away with his family to another state, we got the retired chief deputy of the Uintah County Sheriff’s Department to take over the former ranch manager’s job. And he became the new ranch manager and his work for us also included him doing some investigations in the area for us. So he became an investigator as well. And then later on down the road NIDs hired a couple more investigators. We had John Blair, who’s a retired FBI special agent. And then Roger Pinsent, who was retired from the San Diego police department who had worked for the Nevada State law enforcement, I can’t remember which it was it had to do with the transportation policing on the highways. I’m not sure if it was I don’t know that he was a highway patrol officer but he was in that capacity. And then he left that job and came to work for us as a full time investigator, Roger, before becoming a police officer was actually at the AFOSI, he was a special agent with AFOSI. So he’s an expert investigator like John Blair. So we had quite a bit of staff and we were investigating a lot of UFO cases, not everything was on the ranch. So we had periods of quiescence on the ranch. So there were always up cycles, down cycles, where the activity would get hotter, or just got cold. And then it reached the point by about 2000, and started getting and stayed cold, through 2001. And by early 2002, that’s when Bob decided to start, actually starting in 2005, started cutting personnel because that’s when the ranch phenomena started getting too cold, it didn’t justify having all that staff. Also, we didn’t have that many outside UFO cases called into our one eight hundred number. So we didn’t have a lot coming in. And the FAA wasn’t reporting a lot to us either. So it just got very slow. And Bob is very frugal about his money. So he, you know, he wants to cut back, he’s building that aerospace company up, and he needs the money to do that. So we had to cut our budget to come up with more money every time. So by 2001, 2002, John Alexander and Pete pick up and I think Chad Deacon Shelley Wadsworth, we all had lost our positions.
Shelly and Chad weren’t full time. So I got to be clear, they were only paid when they have an assigned. And so they were they were like 1099 employees. But Colm, George, and John Alexander and I were all full time employees of NIDs. And John Alexander also lost his job the same time I did in the spring in the late winter of I should say in early 2002, which was still winter. And then my job actually terminated in the spring because I had some unused vacation and sick leave I could use up before I was actually off the payroll.
Alejandro Rojas 25:41: All right, we’re going to break and then we’re going to come back because I have a lot of questions about some of the stuff that you’ve gone over. And you’re just a wealth of information, which is so helpful. But we’ll be right back after this short musical interlude or if you’re listening on a station, a commercial break with Dr. Eric Davis so stay tuned.
Alejandro Rojas 26:20: Welcome back to Open Minds UFO Radio I have the pleasure of speaking for the first time with Dr. Eric Davis. And you’ve gone over a lot of really interesting information when it comes to the UFO reporting, in 2009, you know, BAASS, Bigelow’s advanced aerospace group had a partnership with MUFON. And I was actually the PR guy. So I was coming up with like the press release is for all of this stuff. But now in hindsight, you know, I kind of scratch my head and I think, wow, I was part of that program. But did that reprogram receive some of the AATIP funding? Do you know, did it?
Dr. Eric Davis 26:58: I didn’t get that. Can you repeat, please?
Alejandro Rojas: Did the MUFON/BAASS relationship, Was that funding from AAWSAP or AATIP?
Dr. Eric Davis 27:07: I believe so.
Alejandro Rojas: It would make sense.
Dr. Eric Davis: That was nothing I had any roll in. But my recollection is, I believe, that MUFON funding did come out of that.
Alejandro Rojas 27:23: So, another question that is related, and I want to ask more about some of this, so Kit Green and Gary Nolan are both kind of working on these projects to kind identify people who experience paranormal phenomena or even have remote viewing skills, can we identify in their DNA or parts of their brain set that make them more capable of the things are more susceptible to experiences? Have they come to you and taking samples from you?
Dr. Eric Davis 27:53: There’s a part of that question… Can you repeat that last part of that question? You have you skipped out.
Alejandro Rojas 27:59: Were you part of that experiment?
Dr. Eric Davis 28:03: Oh, no, I was a test subject. In other words, I contributed blood. But no, I’m not a part of that. Because I’m not a medical guy. That’s…
Alejandro Rojas 28:13: That was the sense I meant it. Were you kind of a test subject because you had these experiences at Skinwalker? And I guess, were you ever frightened? Did you feel threatened?
Dr. Eric Davis 28:25: Me? Not really.
Alejandro Rojas 28:29: What was the most harrowing experience, I guess that you had?
Dr. Eric Davis 28:35: I never really had a harrowing experience. I think the dark shadow experience was pretty startling, I would say startling experiences… Oh, yeah, the dark shadow and the ball of light that came before the orb that came before it. And then the shooting incident that we had in a separate time.
Alejandro Rojas: I am not aware of that one. I don’t think I don’t remember it.
Dr. Eric Davis 28:56: Oh, that was in the book. Yeah, that’s the one in the book where…
Jesus, that’s, that’s over 20 years ago. Basically, we were out in the field at night, I think we had to do something to deal with pregnant cow that was giving birth. And the herd was getting restless. So the ranch manager thought well, you know, there might be big cat lurking around. And they usually like to lurk when the cows are at their most vulnerable, because they’re giving birth. So he was kind of concerned, we had to go look outside to find out, we had to get in his pickup and go drive around to find out if there’s any big cats out there. And then take a look at what the cows are doing and find out about that pregnant cow. And I believe that was the case about the pregnant cow. I may be wrong about that. But that’s what I thought. That’s what I’m thinking in my mind is I thought we were worried about a pregnant cow.
But in other words, I do know that we were worried about the cows overall being stirred up by something. And so we’re in the near pasture, closest to the ranch to the, to the manufactured home that Bigelow had installed for the staff to live. And we call that the observation house. And right next door to that is the house where the previous owners lived. And, and so anyway, so we were out that night, I don’t remember now what time in the night it was, it was kind of late, it was definitely dark. I don’t remember what time of year, it was warm, it could have been spring or fall. You know, I’m not that good about bovine issues, I think it might have been the spring to the point of being born and probably be born in the spring or late winter, but it was in warm season. So I’m, we’re driving around in the near field near pasture. And there’s a certain tree on a corner where the set with a barbed wire fence makes a 90 degree turn from going west to going north I believe, and what I may have my directions turn around. So but nevertheless, it’s a corner tree. It’s a big rush and the entire tree. And I this is you know, it may have been the beginning of spring because I remember there were no leaves in the tree yet. So it might have been the end of winter beginning spring, but it was still you know, not cold.
So I noticed two really large glowing yellow eyes, they looked like the eyes of a big predator cat. The only problem is they were too big. They were too far apart. And they were up near the top of the tree, you know, in the in the in the main bulk of the branches, but close to the top, somewhere in the top one third of it. And they’re just blinking. And I’m thinking what the hell that is? I’ve never seen a cat that big or with eyes that wide and big. And I think you know, that’s no cat.
So I called, you know, Colm Kelleher was with me and so was the ranch manager. So I caught their attention to it and they saw. And then the ranch manager thought, Oh my God, that’s a cat. You know, he immediately jumped to conclusions. It was a cat. He had his rifle in the spotlight with him.
We drove toward it. And what I remember is that the lights the eyes disappeared, and it looked like something fell from the tree and hit the ground. And then I didn’t see anything after that. It’s just, it’s just like the eyes closed up in the tree. And it might have and I thought something was falling and hit the ground and I didn’t see anything run away but there’s nothing there. So we parked the pickup in front of the left to the left of that in front of the fence and that’s and behind the fence is all the stick folies, Russian olives and all kinds of other trees and shrubs and bushes out there overgrown grass and whatnot. And now that I think about it, yes, it was near the end of winter. It was it was wintertime.
As a matter of fact, now that I think about it wasn’t really that warm. And I remember because we had snow on the ground. It wasn’t snow covered, it was just patches of snow that was left over from an earlier snow and the ground had warmed up enough that a lot of it melted off. And all the cool part only parts of it that were in the shade all the time, where the only patches that stayed intact, but slowly molding way as the temperatures were warming up. So I think we were in the winter spring transition. So anyway, we parked the truck, Jerry got out with his rifle and handed me the spotlight. I got out. And he told me to aim the spotlight, we’re looking along the fence line in the trees to look to this animal. Because he’s worried it’s a big cat and he’s got to shoot it. We didn’t see the thing with the glowing big eyes. But we saw something whose body profile we saw right in front of us. On the other side of the wire, you couldn’t see the rear end, you couldn’t see the front and you just saw the middle of this body that looks fairly big. To me, it looks like a big cow. But to Terry, it looks like a bear.
We were at point blank range so he just shot, he just fired some shots at it. It didn’t flinch. And it just walked off into the shrubs and disappeared. We couldn’t see the hind end of this thing. So we yeah, so all three of us got our way through the barbed wire with the split the barbed wire part to get through. We got in and there’s a clearing behind all the shrubs and trees. And we followed the clearing thinking well, that’s the only place it is going to go. And there’s no footprints in the in the in the ground underground at all. Yes, there’s no blood, there’s no broken twigs or anything. Then we finally run into the little patches of snow. And in the patches of snow, there’s no footprints and no blood drops, or trails of lots of blood that you would expect from an animal that’s been shot several times. And nothing except one single dear hoof print.
Just one single deer hoof print. not two, not three, not four, just one, and it was pointed back in the direction of the pickup, not in the direction that we would expect if it was running away from us. So that was odd. And we didn’t see any other footprints. And I mean this ground is muddy from the snow melt. And so this is this print was on the patch of snow. So anyway, we gave up because we looked all around we couldn’t find anything. So we reported it to Bob Bigelow later on. And the next the next morning Bob got his master hunter tracker who’s the ranch manager for his private ranch and I won’t say what state that is. He, I think he managed his Bob’s personal vacation ranch in another state and Bob flew in on his jet to our ranch.
And actually went to the airport Vernal, Utah, and you have to drive 23 miles to get to to get the Fort Duchesne. So that guy showed up. And he’s an expert hunter tracker. So he started working in a five mile radius starting from the shooting spot, and just tracked that thing everywhere. He just could not find a single sign of a large animal that had been shot multiple times. And no carcass no nothing no blood. No footprint no prints or, or Yeah, no hoof prints like what you would expect. So that was the that was the one experience.
And then I had a couple of crazy experiences actually one in the same just two separate buildings. It’s the second home is the homestead the crumble down 19 century homestead where I had the dark shadow incident and the orb incident we call and Kellehr and I went into those homes doing some field readings with the radiation Geiger counter and the tri-field meter looking at the field situation, electric, magnetic, and radio and whatnot, and then the and then looking at the nuclear radiation. And of course, it’s nothing out there is quiet, I stepped in one of the homesteads and I got attacked, and what looked like bats to me, these are swirling around like they were angry. And I just ran out of there.
I would say yeah, I got frightened. But that that was. So I kind of have to backtrack on my earlier statement that I had.
You know, I was, you know, the experience I previously described, it considered to be frightening. But this frightened me because got my heart rate going. And I had to run out of there because I didn’t know what to do. So I got what I thought were back swirling around. Well, that happened a second time. And I don’t remember now whether it was the same incident or whether I went in a separate time, a separate day, and had the same thing within the second house. There are two little houses next door to each other. And so I went into the second one have the same experience and these are taking place in the living room areas. And what I upon reporting it to call and we go back in and another the next day, take a look when we got salsa showing. And I think this happened late afternoon, early evening, so I don’t have full sunshine going on. And pick actually they were they were just after dusk.
Now that I remember that events were just after dusk. So we sound Sparrow nest up on the corners of the wall in the ceiling. More than one there were several Sparrow nest and sparrows use mud. They take in mud in their beaks, and I don’t know if they actually swallow it, they probably swallow it. And then they regurgitate it to make these little meth heads up in the wall in the corner area to protect your eggs. And that’s what they were they weren’t bats. They were sparrows and they scared.
Yeah, but, you know, we attribute that actually, if you want to look at another scientific basis holistically, you don’t want to say I just walked in and scared the shit out of a few sparrows, mother sparrows that were protecting their eggs. What it could have been is yet yeah, they were there. But and I think the common denominator with the Yeah, that’s what I did, I scared them. So they decided to go on the attack by flying around me. Problem is, is that it may have actually been a part of the phenomenon that I would have stepped into there and gotten attacked. Now I wasn’t disturbed. This is the funny thing. I wasn’t disturbing anything. I did not poke those things. I didn’t see them. I didn’t poke them.
I wasn’t making noise; I was actually walking around quietly. And just using the meters taking a look at stuff and all of a sudden, these black things he’s bringing black things that I thought were bats were just rushing my head and circles. And I just don’t know I just john alexander has a has a good background calm killer, who doesn’t that that I do on explaining that part of the part of events, but that would column has written about it in the sense that he can come up with an explanation. And it was a phenomenal and it was the act of the phenomenon that that had happened to me and me only, whereas other people have been in those two houses, and never had that problem like I did. It seemed to that problem only had followed me twice. So do you feel that I had another?
Alejandro Rojas 40:07: I was just goanna ask you. Do you feel that you were a magnet for the phenomena? And if so do you know why do you have any ideas?
Dr. Eric Davis 40:13: Well, that’s a hypothesis we have on people like abductees or people who are not abductees but have more than the usual statistical probability of close encounter experiences of the worst or the, the mediocre or the worst kind of people you’re you, you can actually psychically act as an antenna for the phenomenon. And it turns out that the studies that the tech green and Gary Nolan had done along with call themselves is that they have discovered that the bio, well, if they’re not physicist, I put it in the terms of biophysics, I’ll just say the biology or the bio immunology or the bio science of the immune system, is that your immune system, which I don’t know how many of Americans people know that this we’re aware of it, depending upon your degree of education, is that your immune system is an organ in your body. It’s not just a system of chemicals. Your immune system is an Oregon, and it regenerates itself, like some of your other organs. And also, it’s super sensitive. And genetically, Gary Norman and Tom calendar discovered that the immune system records every single event that has ever happened in your life. So it’s like the Library of Congress that every that records everything that occurred since the day you were born, probably even before you were born.
And one of the things that records are the insults that your body has taken due to environmental exposure, or injuries or diseases, and it keeps a perfect record that stuff. And so they hypothesized that, you know, this is this is really greater, it’s acting like a brain is responding like a brain in a in a psychic way. So although it’s tied into your fist, you know, your real brain, but it does behave as if it has its own mind. So anyway, their hypothesis is that I don’t remember all the discussions that we’ve had on this, because that was many, many years ago. But the gist of what I know is that the new system works like an antenna, it absorbs everything in the environment around you. And that might be the reason why the phenomenon is interested in you. Because there might be, it may know that you’ve got some genetic predisposition that is interested in the most. And that’s what Gary and kits work is all about, is why are certain people highly sensitive to being this having this genetic disposition to phenomenon encounters. And then they go into the Kotick containment studies using MRI scans, and whatnot.
And so you know, the rest of that story. So it seems that there are people that are more sensitive than others, and it’s just isn’t in the straight, old fashioned brain psychic sense, you might be to throw the immune system into it because the immune system does behave like an antenna that sucks in information records it, and it’s got knowledge and it may be communicating on its own way that we you know, we haven’t fully discovered everything that it does to my understanding. And so it’s still under studying genetics is very complicated. Genetics is not straightforward, and it’s not linear. It’s a very nonlinear, non straightforward, not very counterintuitive thing that produces life in this, you know, at least on this planet. And as far as we know, there’s still much more to be learned we have learned all there is to know about or to find out about it, we’re still making those discoveries. So the same goes for the immune system because immune system is a function of genetics, of course so when you refer to abduction, do you believe that people actually are being taken physically taken by extraterrestrials?
I don’t think they’re being taken by extraterrestrials. We don’t have proof that there are extraterrestrials we know that whatever it is, is not human. Now there is a hypothesis that they been abducted by a covert clandestine, bro non state operation that looks at people of specific backgrounds with specific predisposition, maybe it’s a genetic thing too. And they get abducted because they’re being tested or examined or there’s a purpose involved with that. That’s a hypothesis I’ve been, I’ve heard among the colleagues. And the standard hypothesis that comes from john Mack and David Jacobson, and Budd Hopkins work is all been the Extra Terrestrial hypothesis that UFO is from another planets are coming down, they’re going to pick a few humans off to off the ground to evaluate them, just like you just like a cattle rancher who’s breeding specific breed of Black Angus or specific breed of Charlie’s cattle wants to walk random going into the pen or into the pasture. Now that particular cow take it back. And like the former ranch manager, the original owner of the ranch at the time that we in our era, the one who reported all of his family’s problems with that phenomenon, and I ended up working for Bob Bigelow when they left the ranch.
What he was was he was a college educated, very sophisticated animal husbandry expert, and wasn’t just his skill, running ranch raising cattle. It was his skill in that he was able to do crossbreeding and hybridization breeding using the techniques he learned in college. And that was he could transplant embryos, he could teach new all the process and procedures for developing bovine embryos and transplanting them in order to get the best breed of cattle with the best meat quality for market. So he was that sophisticated. So he’s gonna wander into the ranch and just grab it, you know, this, this female there asking me all there and take them into the to the lab or whatever yet up at the ranch, that pizza that serves as a spot for examining his cattle, his two camels is breeding cows. So you know, that’s, that’s similar. In a way, it’s almost a similar function. The only thing I caution your listeners is, don’t assume that you can apply human ways of thinking about these things. Because although there’s a metaphorical analogy to it.
The fact is, is that anything that’s non human necessarily will not think like a human, because of the way they evolved, the way their senses developed. And the senses bite information into whatever neurological complex neurological cognitive system organ in the in their bodies, which we would call a brain. So they’re not going to have the same way things are methods and frame of mind and processes to think, rationalize the way humans do because of the environment they came from. So we can assume that now if you’re thinking they’re a row covert operation of some sort, whether military or non state actors, sure, they’re going to behave like humans do, they’re going to operate like humans do. But if you’re going to take the hypothesis that this is a human, then don’t overlay human thinking and human framework or human frame of mind, I should say, and human theories and human explanations and speculations on what they’re doing. Because what they’re doing, you do not know. They haven’t communicated that to us. We have no idea what that’s about. We could speculate endlessly. So right. And that’s a hard time very cautious about that.
Alejandro Rojas 47:43: The hard part is speculation, especially with science, we don’t know what we don’t know. And typically the answers are things we can’t even speculate because we don’t know.
Dr. Eric Davis 47:51: Yeah, we know, we do know one thing. They’re there. They’re doing something. We don’t know their origin because they don’t want to communicate that to us.
Alejandro Rojas: Right. What about crashes? Like there’s been some references. I’m pretty skeptical when it comes to alleged UFO crashes. But I think you’ve made some comments, maybe some others, who have worked with AATIP have made comments that there may be a program to look into that or there, there may have been crashes you all feel
Dr. Eric Davis: I yeah, there have been crashes.
The super powers on the earth has had their share of crashes. And they have recovered the vehicles from their crashes. So that’s why shockingly, and I agree that even though these things behave like a conscious spiritual, psychic entity, they do have a advanced technology, they have hardware, and there’s a craft, and there’s occupants, or you forgot that he calls him that shocked. And he calls new phenomena. So there’s you for not running these craft, whatever they may be. And he likes to make an analogy, these of these paintings to the little people are the fairies of Europe, Ireland, and macgiolla remember that the passport to go into one of his books, and stuff, that kind of thing. So that’s fair enough. So anyway.
So yeah, they have that technology. We do too. And it’s a very super sensitive topic. Because it’s it’s something that your listeners, you’re probably going to be shocked at, probably less than one 1,000th of one 100,000 of the United States military and the government overall doesn’t even know about it. Arm so I got said that contradictory. I said probably a minute fraction, it’s like less than one 1000 or 100,000 of the people with See, need to know, access need to know authorization, and security clearances to be involved with that type of work, are the only ones that know, the vast majority of the rest of the government really doesn’t know. And that’s why one hand, like the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing.
Virtually because of the stovepipe thing that goes on in compartmentalized programs. And you just can’t knock on doors and say, Hey, here’s who I am I, you know, I don’t have a bachelor’s, but not the right ones. I don’t have a need to know. But I want to know, so can you tell me and you’re going to be lied to? Because that’s, that’s the rule. You don’t want to tell the enemy anything when this guy is knocking on your door asking you about UFO crashes, could be an asset for the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation, or the Chinese p LA. Or the nincompoops over and ran for three and so forth. So, you know, even if it’s an American, you still don’t want to answer that question because you don’t know who they are. And you’re not supposed to be revealing that information. So it takes a lot of hard tracking and digging after working. And it can take years and years and years. And then you develop the security clearances and the authorization for you to know that appropriately, appropriately allow you access to that information, then you find out hey, yeah, it’s there, it’s true. On the other hand, sometimes the information does come out on its own. But it doesn’t come out in the way that you followed, you likes to fantasize about it. It comes out only to specific people who have specific talents or skills, who have security clearances, they may not have the need to know. But they could have the need to know if they were presented with that requirement.
Or if they were presented by a crash retrieval program and saying, hey, I want to bring in gentlemen, x, y, z, he’s got the security clearances, but he doesn’t have the need to know I want to give them the need to know because I need this town to help us solve this problem with the crash retrieval reverse engineering studies. So then they will do that other times. That’s the official way of doing it. That’s how you officially get brought in. The other unofficial way is, again, you build the level of trust among certain individuals, and people within the network who, after a few years of knowing them to work with them, they know who you are, they know what you’re capable of, they know your competencies. And they want to bring the topic up on an informal basis with you sometimes not even an informal basis, they may want to bring the topic up outside the realm of the security apparatus. But within a skiff. In other words, there’s going to be no passing of security clearances to establish that I have is going to be allowed to be ready and on the crash approval program.
But they’ll bring me into a skiff and want to talk informally and discuss about it and say, Well, this is what we can tell you that there’s things that we can’t tell you. And we can tell you those things if you can get the next level security and authorization to get the need to know and then we can do business with you. But before we get to that point, here’s what we can tell you without having to cross that red one of the need to know and the proper clearances. So so you work this stuff out over a number of years, you build networks, and you find the right people. And then you know, you don’t do it by knocking on doors, you do it just through the happenstance of having a contract with somebody or a subcontract. And you’re interfacing with them. And then lo and behold, you find out through the vice president or the president of one of the legacy aerospace corporations. And they happen to be a PhD of some sort of their, you know, some discipline, their own stem discipline on their own their own court. And it just so happens that they were a guy that worked on the crash retrieval program. Oh, lo and behold, and then they find out that you’re working in UFO, you’re on the UFO subject for upwards God programs. And the same Oh, that’s wonderful. You’re officially government contractor or subcontractor.
And you’re working with another aerospace company. Okay, well, that’s fine. You’re working on us as well, guess what, we did it too. And we don’t do it now. But we did it in the past. And here’s what we, here’s what we can tell you off the record. And here’s what we can in here. And you’ll have to go another step before we tell you what it is on the record. But it has to be through that, again, you have to have the right clearances, you have to have the authorization for the need to know and then you can get the full story. So it’s a very complex process. It just the way Steve Greer went about it for his disclosure program that was called the shotgun approach, the shotgun approach move. He was putting himself out there during the 1990, say, talking about crash retrieval. And I won’t go through his whole story I’m sure you’ve already covered in other people covered it. But one thing led to another and he life was like a bar magnet tracking all these retirees from various parts of the government, US military, who had some knowledge about the UFO subject and the crash Retrieval Subject in particular. And a good majority of them were crackpots. They were phones. But there was a small number of them that were there real deal. And so he successfully picked up a very small number of them, and got some information. And now as to the veracity and quality of that information. That’s another story. But he did get some interesting information. Okay, so can you share with us who you might have been the real deal?
Alejandro Rojas 55:20: Could you share with us who you think might have been the real deal out of his witnesses?
Dr. Eric Davis 55:24: No, what I mean, is the information. The information was not was verifiable. In other words, once people looked into it, they said, yeah, this is realistic. Whereas a good chunk, a good chunk of this disclosure, witnesses. You know, you had middle road, guys, they had some information, but it was too purple. It was just anecdotal. And then you had the guys that were real liars. He’s got a chunk of liars out there that real that he I don’t know, how much effort he spent on vetting any of those people. And I’m not going to name names Mr. who they are. It’s not important, because that doesn’t, because the fact that they have no real information means it’s noise, we’re dealing with signal, we’re interested in signal and science folks, not the noise. Check the noise. So so he did have a small signal of people that had verifiable information. And unfortunately, that’s like I said, it’s the shotgun approach. They came forward, they gave him information that was freely given to him. But it was after the fact it was nothing that could be acted on. The people that gave him information were they weren’t directly involved with the crash retrieval. That all they actually were either peripheral, or they heard it from somebody reliable. So the vertical information was high quality, but they were not firsthand.
People, you know what I mean, even with first hand knowledge, right first hand exposure to this whole subject. So he got pretty close. But that’s the shotgun approach, where you’re going to shoot the shotgun, your post, you’re going to hit all over the wall, and there’s going to be a small part of the wall where the hell hit the right targets. And all the rest of the pellets, pretty much only just a few pellets at the right target. And all the rest of the pellets just randomly hit a bunch of bad targets.
Alejandro Rojas 57:17: Hard part is that the target’s invisible? We don’t know.
Dr. Eric Davis 57:20: Yeah.
Alejandro Rojas 57:22: Read it, right. Shotgun spray, but we don’t know where the target is. Oh,
Dr. Eric Davis 57:28: Yeah. So here’s the thing that you should know is that the crush approval program is very small program. It is not a massive, huge government infrastructures. It’s, it’s a very, it’s a very poorly funded program. And it hasn’t actually probably hasn’t had money for a while.
I do know that the program was terminated 1989, for lack of progress in reverse engineering, anything that they had any of the hardware that they had, and don’t worry directed every maybe so often, so many years go by and they’ll try it again. And they just don’t succeed. compartmentalization is killer, scientists cannot communicate with other scientists to get help. It’s like, I’m doing this, this first semester differential calculus homework problem, I’m doing the rocket equation. And I am stuck on the boundary conditions. So I can come up with the right solution that gives me the right answer to the propellant mass flow rate. And I’m having a hard time. So what do I gotta do, I’m missing something, I just don’t know what I’m supposed to do with this and just be able to solve this differential equation.
So I got a call my buddy who’s in my class, he’s a, he’s a math whiz. And he’s the one that gets straight A’s. So I’m going to call him on the phone and say, help me with this, this is what I got done. And this is what I stuck doing. And he’ll explain it to me. Well, if you’re in the crash retrieval program, or any black program for that matter, and you come up with the Roadblock, a technical Roadblock, you can’t call your best buddy, or, or any experts, you don’t know and just call them cold and say, Hey, this is who I am, this is what I’m doing. This is what I’m working on. I’m stuck. What do you suggest I do to get past this roadblock? You can’t do that.
Alejandro Rojas 59:13: Nick Pope had talks about the same problem, when they did the Condign report, they genuinely had some intelligence people who wanted to look into the issue. But they had no access, they couldn’t talk to anybody who had they weren’t cleared for all of these things they wanted to write about. So they just had to speculate.
Dr. Eric Davis 59:32: So and this isn’t just unique to the crash proof program, this type of problem is unique to all the black programs that the God has. DHS has and the military services, service branches houses, that Department of Energy has their own versions. And, you know, you, the purpose of a black program with a special access program security rap is you got to limit the information and exposure to the information to a few people’s possible in order to produce the maximum security protection against espionage by the enemy. And so that limits who you can work with that, that also is clear to know, that limits the amount of experts that you can have working with you. And gosh, you know, if your if your small group of experts are stumped, you’re screwed, because you basically can’t call your buddies or somebody you know, or somebody you know, who’s an expert better than you or better or, you know, a bigger expert on the subject at a university either near you or at a university across the country, you can’t call those guys, you can’t even read them in because you’re not supposed to acknowledge some of these black, mostly black programs, you’re not supposed to be acknowledged.
So, you know, for that basis that you don’t legitimately exist. So you can’t tip off the university expert, that there’s a program by calling you and saying I’m stuck on something, you just can’t do it. If it’s really dire. And it’s a problem that really the expertise is desperately needs it outside of the cleared group, then the program manager and the security officer will write a justification to go reach out to the university expert and read him in on the program. And they’ll have to be given security clearances and sign the NDA and I’ll fill out the SF 86 and, and all those forums and get the DD to 54 filled out. And then they’ll be told, you know, you go you die with this information, you can ever talk about it until after you die till after you’re dead.
So that’s how that works. And it happens in Christmas programs. It happens mostly programs involving covert clandestine operations and their logistics, it happens with nuclear weapons development and deployment. It happens with intelligence operations, and, and it happens with technology development. And the interesting thing is today, there’s a big move away from Special Access Programs. They’re extremely costly to maintain, extremely costly, let me tell you this, the cost of maintaining information personal and physical security for special access program can be 10s of times larger than the cost of the program itself. So let’s say the program is building the P 21. bomber, right? Let’s just assume, let’s say for the sake of argument, the final project is $50 billion. So that’s probably not even reasonable to say that the security for that is going to be could be as much as 10 times higher. I mean, it could be stretched out over a number of years, of course, not all at once. So to be as much as 10 timers, because you’ve got to maintain all kinds of security.
Alejandro Rojas 1:02:38: That’s amazing. So we’re pretty much out of time. Okay. Yeah. So I want to ask you one last question. And it has to do with the technology development, like you had just mentioned, but essentially, you know, the goal, I think it’s been your goal and house goal and it to the stars goal is to actually use what you’ve learned, learned from the observation of the phenomena, develop a technology? Do you think that’s possible? And is that possible in the near time?
Dr. Eric Davis 1:03:11: It’s hard to predict. It’s really hard to predict. It probably is long term, not near some of these projects that were like, for example, that’s what the 38 papers that the CIA wanted in their tasks. There Bigelow Aerospace advanced Space Studies contract was to take the physics, physics and engineering of 23,009 and 2010, extrapolated to 2015. Are we going to be able to have the physics and engineering and a technology industrial base that will produce a vehicle that will match the Tic Tac? By 2050, because what it does decide all of a sudden, to turn against us, and they use their advanced weaponry, whatever they have, and start hurting people start destroying things. I mean, we haven’t seen that happen. But we’ve seen that during books investigation of the Northern Tier stock encounters with the giant UFO is that shut down the warhead navigation system. And it happened multiple times that happened in the late 60s and happened in the mid 70s. And so and so we know that they’re quite capable of rendering our nuclear warheads, an ICBM useless, which is very dangerous, because if the Soviet Union had decided to launch war right then and there, just coincidentally, the damn UFO had rendered it impossible for us to do a counter strike. Because our goddamn ICBM up in the northern tier, we shut down. So that’s an example of winning is that and then there’s Polaris. Polaris is an example where the box shake UFO is that they called troopers were actually killing some people and entering large numbers of people. And, and they were using beings to do it. I’m sure you’re familiar with the coolers case, from the 1970s I think it was some land. What that was project play.
That’s what that’s what the Brazilians called Project played, I believe. So the personally in our force, so that’s, you know, us those have not been more benevolent, they have not shown any brother leaf, you know, space, brotherly love and peace type movements toward us. It’s all been just hide and seek hide and seek. We use stuff as much as possible so that humans don’t see us in the environment, and then want to expose ourselves; we expose ourselves, do our little fun games and then take off. And they may be testing our technology may be testing in the US Navy’s capabilities when they do this. And, and also, they’ve done it with the Air Force, too. So you know, what are they doing it for? Well, again, they’re not humans, so they don’t think like humans, right? They’re doing it for whatever it takes, they decide to become aggressive, we’re screwed. Basically, we don’t have aircraft that can match them. We know we haven’t shot out of those, you know, the limits was out on a on a certification trail, meaning to get certified to go deploy the Persian Gulf in November 2004. And so for the certification training, they just have their fighters taken off the carrier deck of Nimitz and flying around doing maneuvers. But they’re not armed. Because they’re not supposed to be you know, you don’t want them shooting at your at your fellow planes. It’s not a red. I said, I think they might have had Red Team Blue team. Things going on. Yeah, they might have just been doing routine. Yeah. So but you can have like ammunition for right.
When they want to do Bonnie is tracing. They do that out it’s data, Airforce weapons testing range near the test site. That’s where they can do all the strange thing and bombing they want with five more minutes. But when you’re over the ocean, and you’re near ships, and you’ve got your buddies in the air, and in a Red Team Blue Team cut configuration, you don’t want to you can’t have like ordinary right, I had no way of shooting them down. They weren’t asked if they were on. So they could attempt to shoot one down or just least send off the missile or fire something kind of scared the UFO was responding. And they you know, the pilot said no, we’re not armed, we don’t have anything. It couldn’t shouldn’t. So that was a test that could not be performed to determine whether you could shoot one down. So we just don’t know. But you got to worry about it. That’s what intelligence and military doctoring are all about. It’s about planning for potential realities. And we have to worry about something more advanced could be overwhelming or military technology. And so we’ve got to be able to extrapolate to 2015. Will our physics be there?
Will our engineering be there? Will our industrial manufacturing technology be there to produce Tic Tac type technologies? And on the flip side of that, boy, that would be wonderful if we could get there, because commercially, it would revolutionize transportation and energy on the earth, you know, broken through. So TTSA is looking to benefit, you know, that’s a public benefit corporation. So we’re looking to benefit the public with this. We’re not looking at making weapons, the military needs to look at making weapons, and that’s why we have the 38 papers.
Alejandro Rojas 1:08:01: Exactly. So that was a lot of help. That was a lot of information. Thank you so much. It’s great that you talk fast, because there’s a lot of information to convey. But it was an absolute pleasure to have you on and I hope we can have you on again one day.
Dr. Eric Davis 1:08:15: Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you very much, and I enjoyed helping you out with your show. We’ll talk we’ll reconnect in the future.
Read more about Dr. Davis here: EarthTech.org
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